[Note: the following might be confusing to those who do not know the background to it. If you are confused and want the background, see the Deep But Not Boring group on Facebook.]

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify, Ben. The phrase "works righteousness" can have many nuances of meaning. It is important to understand those nuances if we are to think clearly about this subject.

Possible meaning #1: We make ourselves acceptable to God by improving ourselves outwardly (behaviorally). My response: there is almost nothing more antithetical to salvation as it is fully described in the New Testament. If what I am speaking of sounds to you like this, I have failed to communicate my meaning clearly.

Possible meaning #2: Connecting to the love and power and grace of God through true faith will automatically - I would say, even without any effort on our part - lead to improvements (though not "perfection" in the way you mean it) in the way we deal with life and people, as in James' "faith without works is dead." This is clearly the case in the New Testament, but it is not relevant to the original point I was trying to make.

Possible meaning #3: When it comes to Christian faith and live, the most important thing is how we treat others ("works"), along with other externals. My response to this is the same as my response to #1. A quick reading of Matthew 5 will demonstrate the error of this meaning.

Possible meaning #4: There is something about the "works" that the Holy Spirit produces through the life of the disciple of Jesus that is utterly unique, radically good, and in fact impossible to produce through merely human effort. My response: Again, this is absolutely the clear teaching of the New Testament. In fact, I would say that much of the confusion and controversy about the meaning of "works righteousness" is a tragic distraction from our proper focus on "the righteousness of God" or "the works of the Spirit."

How does having the expectation that salvation includes becoming internally more like Christ as well as being accepted via Christ's sacrifice - "diminish the power of Christ"?

Regarding, "I do not believe we need to worry about our fates after death." - Where do you see me saying otherwise? God accepts us. That is not the problem.

Regarding "We must aim for perfection." I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you have a good understanding of what passages like Matthew 5:48 and James 1:4 mean, then I affirm your statement. However, experience teaches me that many people are confused on this point. They tend to have one or both of two kinds of "perfection" in their minds - neither of which applies to God, or to his intent for his disciples.

Regarding, I do "have the hell thing handled" but that does not mean I will not be accountable for my actions. Response: We are in total agreement here. What did I write that made it seem otherwise?

Summary: After conversion (reconciliation, justification), Christians are still bothered about their moral shortcomings. Partially, this is because of a newly redeemed conscience and the presence of the Holy Spirit. But it also involves "the Accuser" - that doubles its nefarious activities against the converted person. The problem is, most Christians are not taught how to challenge their moral shortcomings except via fleshly effort (what you may mean here by "works righteousness"). So they are trapped between two bad choices: 1. Fleshly moral effort that always leads to self-righteousness and/or failure; or 2. Believing "salvation" is little more than being made acceptable to God through Christ's death. --- The New Testament does not support either of these.

Keep in mind, Ben: There is much that has been said in the past two meetings that you have missed. (No criticism here; just felt it was an important factor.)